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Old 12-03-2008, 08:53 AM
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Coalition in Canada??

This was sent to me in an email this morn. Scary stuff....



Well what can I say, Canada is in an up roar this week. For those of you that receive this message that are not Canadian I will explain. We just completed a Federal Election a couple of months ago, and the Conservative Party got more votes that any other party running.

So the Conservative Party formed the Government, as per normal in Canada. But now the opposition parties don't like being in opposition, so they formed a Coalition amongst the four opposition parties and are in the process of in-acting a "COUP" of the present government.

They intend to take power, and put in as the leader a man that runs the Liberal party in Canada. This man received the least amount of votes for his party in the history of Canadian Politics--and right after the election his party almost kicked him out of his leadership role. But now they say they have all rallied behind him to run Canada.

Then further to that the party that received the third least votes in the last election is a SEPARATIST PARTY. This party called the "Bloc" wants Quebec to separate from Canada and does not support the Federal idea of being Canadian, also supports this "Coup". They will in turn support the Coalition in direct return for favours for one year. Some of the favours I am hearing is appointments to our Senate (which is good for live, paid for live, and is supposed to be a reward for being a good strong Canadian in politics ). Kind of a pension fund for good Canadian politicians, but just a minute these are separatists, and want the country to turn them loose and separate Canada and Quebec. These pensions and salaries are paid by us the Canadian tax payers, that do not support the Separatist party in Quebec. This same party has been given the right to debate in elections against the Federalist parties on live T.V.

Then the Socialist party the N.D.P. is also supporting this Coalition, as they will get to also have some of their party members become Ministers in the new government. This party has never ever came close to forming a Federal Government, but are now licking their lips as they will finally get to sit in some seats of power.

Each of these opposition parties claimed that they could not align with each other during the election, as they had too many political differences. The Bloc wants to separate, the Liberals wanted a Carbon Tax ( that was designed to tax energy from the West ) but even the Liberal voters re-jected his ideas. The N.D.P. party just wanted to tax anyone that made money and give it back to unions--and they got some of the Liberal votes in the east from Auto Industry that is in bad shape. This is the Auto Industry that makes on average $73 per hour wages, plus perks of medical, dental, etc. But this Auto Industry is struggling to sell it's over-priced units into the North American market place.

One party the "The Green Party" has no seats in this government, never has had an elected seat, are also being consulted in this "Coup", and I heard today that the leader might be given a seat in the Senate.



Sign a petition http://canadians4democracy.ca/
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:04 AM
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This is Ridiculous, and I can't even talk about it, I get so angry. I am usually quite calm and lately indifferent to politics, but this whole thing is an absolute joke.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:05 AM
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Why? Collectively the left make up the majority of what Canada wants. I think it is a brilliant idea.

Why don't we all protest because the reform party and the progressive conservatives joined forces.

The conservative party sucks ass and whatever it takes to get rid of them is good in my books.

The Conservatives used the Bloc when it was opportunistically viable, they are just grasping at straws by villanizing the left that are using them in the same way.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:09 AM
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This is Ridiculous, and I can't even talk about it, I get so angry. I am usually quite calm and lately indifferent to politics, but this whole thing is an absolute joke.
I'm agree 100%.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:14 AM
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I just hope they get rid of Dion quicker and Michael Ignatieff is Prime Minister.

Our country will be perfect again

Last edited by brody; 12-03-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:28 AM
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Why? Collectively the left make up the majority of what Canada wants.

They make up the majority when you combine a bunch of parties that were separately elected. If you put Canada to a vote, to elect either the conservatives or this pathetic Coalition crap, I don't think that they would still remain the majority. If they are, so be it, but then it could be justified that Canada was fully informed when they made the decision as to who they were ELECTING to power. The circumstances are drastically different.
I would love to see a liberal party back in, but NOT under these circumstances. I did not support them because I believe Dion would be a horrible leader. I know many people felt the same way. And now they're just going to try and sneak him in anyway??? Even if Frank McKenna, who I would campaign for to see PM, was gonna lead this coalition (hypothetically, cause I know the reality of that), I would not support this backdoor deal.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:38 AM
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^ Yeah Dion will indeed be a horrible leader. This is why we need Ignatieff, he will be ruling from the sidelines anyway.

Do you think that people are suddenly going to vote Conservative because of this coalition? I don't think so. I thought in the last election that it would be a great idea to unite the left. This bullshit with the conservatives acting like bullies and forcing elections every ten minutes because they constantly come up with ineffective ways of running our country is getting tedious.

If it takes another election, so be it, more millions of dollars wasted to come to the same conclusion. I am sure SH would love that, the conservatives love spending money on nothing.
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Old 12-03-2008, 09:54 AM
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I Hate all these elections as much as anyone, (see my posts back in October during the election) However, if this is the route that they are going to take, an election is Necessary. I dont' care... spend the money. Sure it pisses me off, but by allowing these types of deals, it opens doors, and could start a very slippery slope. I wont support that. There is enough corruption and deceit in our politics already.
I feel that many people would switch their vote to support the conservatives rather than see a Coalition led by Dion take power. (particularly if they are giving more power to the Bloc, but I'm uncertain about the extent of their involvement) I know a lot of people who are very against any type of coalition with the Bloc, and others who did not vote liberal because of Dion. I may have spoken too hasilty when I said I dont' think they'd remian the majority.... but I don't know. Regardless, if they did, I can accept that, as long as it was done democratically. This takeover is not democratic.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:05 AM
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The coalition is necessary for effective government.

They are not technically joining with the Bloq, the Bloq will just vote in favour of whatever the coalition decides. Even if they did, who cares. Like a lot of people, I really do not give a flying fuck if Quebec decides to liberate themselves from whatever constraints they feel they are under. Sovereignty is not even a key issue with the party because the majority of Quebecers do not even want to separate. This whole excuse is lame.

It doesn't matter anyway. As soon as LT. Gov is back on Canadian soil, Harper will instruct her to dissolve Parliament like the big baby he is.

Then he will not be able to bitch and complain when the left wins.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:37 AM
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I think that letter is a load of propaganda.


We did not elect a prime minister, we elected an MP to represent us. If the majority of MPs feel that the government is not working, they must act.
That is democracy to me.

However, I think the Cons will do whatever they can to stave this off, which will have to be to introduce some sort of economic stimulus beyond their current do-nothing-wait-and-see-what-Obama-does approach.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by lins150 View Post
This was sent to me in an email this morn. Scary stuff....
The Harper Conservatives thrive on scaring citizens.
We will see in the next few days what other tricks they have up their sleeves to remain in power. They have already sued the Liberal party as a silencing tactic on other unsavoury deals they were involved in, released unauthorized tapes of confidential conversations between the NDP and Bloq (tapes of similar conversations the NDP claim to have held with the Conservatives when they were in Opposition), never let their MPs breathe a word unless given the go-ahead from the PMO and spread scripted lines for their "local activists" to parry on local airwaves. This is the dirtiest Conservative party in history.
If the Conservatives had NOT merged with Reform/Alliance, they would have had a much better chance of gaining a majority in the last election.


Ugh, there is just too much heaving and spitting to read through all of that email.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:52 AM
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lol, conservative? come to the US and see what conservative really is

and this kinda bothered me: so they formed a Coalition amongst the four opposition parties and are in the process of in-acting a "COUP" of the present government."

...enacting?
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:55 AM
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lol, conservative? come to the US and see what conservative really is

and this kinda bothered me: so they formed a Coalition amongst the four opposition parties and are in the process of in-acting a "COUP" of the present government."

...enacting?
and coupe
and there aren't four opposition parties
and of the three, only two are forming a coalition

it is so full of inaccuracies to skew their target opinion
I CAN TALK TO CAPSLOCK TOO. THIS MEANS WHAT I'M SAYING IS SCARY.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ShanaG View Post
The Harper Conservatives thrive on scaring citizens.
We will see in the next few days what other tricks they have up their sleeves to remain in power. They have already sued the Liberal party as a silencing tactic on other unsavoury deals they were involved in, released unauthorized tapes of confidential conversations between the NDP and Bloq (tapes of similar conversations the NDP claim to have held with the Conservatives when they were in Opposition), never let their MPs breathe a word unless given the go-ahead from the PMO and spread scripted lines for their "local activists" to parry on local airwaves. This is the dirtiest Conservative party in history.
If the Conservatives had NOT merged with Reform/Alliance, they would have had a much better chance of gaining a majority in the last election.


Ugh, there is just too much heaving and spitting to read through all of that email.


Except the sentence in bold does not make sense to me. It is because they merged that they had a better chance because the right was not split
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:59 AM
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and coupe
and there aren't four opposition parties
and of the three, only two are forming a coalition

it is so full of inaccuracies to skew their target opinion
I CAN TALK TO CAPSLOCK TOO. THIS MEANS WHAT I'M SAYING IS SCARY.
Fuck. Thank you.

and LOL.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:09 AM
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Except the sentence in bold does not make sense to me. It is because they merged that they had a better chance because the right was not split
I guess I just think that Reform was evil, and then they were resurrected as Alliance, which proves that they are zombies.
Do we really want flesh-eating zombies in power?
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:10 AM
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We did not elect a prime minister, we elected an MP to represent us. If the majority of MPs feel that the government is not working, they must act.
That is democracy to me.
That particular letter is not a good representation of what is happening. I will admit that. But, I still strongly disagree with the move. As for the Bloc, I understand that they really have little role in this other then to give their support, you still wonder how they will benefit from this. I fail to see how sovereignty is not one of their key issues, but it's a completely different discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

I do not believe this move is democratic, but if not undemocratic, it is at the very least deceitful. So if talking about tricks, Everyone is doing it. Why further support it. When Canada voted, it was assured that this coalition would not be an option. I understand that we vote for MP's but we still do vote for MP's with an informed idea of how our federal government will be run. The Canadian public were not asked, or allowed to show their support or dislike for this leadership. Besides that, this move is a move for power, not our welfare. Maybe they we would be better off, (WHO KNOWS), but I do not believe that they are acting in the best interest of our country/economy. It is my opinion that the manner they are going about this is wrong.

I like how it was put in this blog. The Scott Ross: The Liberal-NDP Coalition Is Undemocratic. you can argue either way, but I agree with this viewpoint.

Quote:
The Conservative Party and a variety of Conservative supporters are utilizing one broad argument to frame this move towards a coalition government as undemocratic. They suggest that since there was just an election on October 14 and the Conservatives won the most votes, they therefore should be the government. From this point it is additionally propositioned that Stephane Dion garnered a sound defeat, the largest for the Liberal Party since confederation, and thus should not be Prime Minister.

Liberals and other progressive supporters are responding accurately, detailing the nature of our parliamentary system and providing a rational basis for why a coalition government headed by Stephane Dion would be democratic. They cite the important feature of our system where voters do not elect the Prime Minister, they elect MPs who then in turn based on their seats in the House of Commons determine the Prime Minister; thus justifying Stephane Dion becoming Prime Minister with a coalition government holding a majority of MPs' support.

Though Liberals and others are correct, when one looks at Canadian history they are only correct momentarily. This condition is a result of the convention that when a new Leader becomes Prime Minister, he or she must show they are supported by Canadians. Under the proposed agreement amongst the Coalition there would be no such election on Stephane Dion for at least a year and a half, and thus would at the very least weaken that historical democratic tradition.

Every Prime Minister since 1896 that was not Leader of their party at the time of an election held another vote within months of taking over. Arthur Meighen called an election five months after becoming Prime Minister from Borden in 1921. Pierre Elliot Trudeau called an election two months after becoming PM after Pearson resigned in 1968. John Turner called an election in 1984 just over two months after becoming PM after Trudeau. Kim Campbell called an election just over four months in 1993 after inheriting the office from Brian Mulroney. Paul Martin called an election six months after he took over from Jean Chretien in 2003. The larger delay for Paul Martin was a result of Shiela Fraser's report coming out two months after he became Prime Minister.

The coalition between the Liberal Party and the NDP with the support from the Bloc would put off an election for at least 18 months, where then the Bloc would be free to withdraw. So for 18 months Canada would have a leader that did not follow in the democratic footsteps of every similar leader since 1896. Now on this point it must be granted the coalition government though not completely undemocratic, as all MPs would still be elected and the government would still consist of a majority of those members, would nonetheless be partially undemocratic.
anyway, I obviously get heated talking about this so I should just shut up now.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:12 AM
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and coupe
and there aren't four opposition parties
and of the three, only two are forming a coalition

it is so full of inaccuracies to skew their target opinion
I CAN TALK TO CAPSLOCK TOO. THIS MEANS WHAT I'M SAYING IS SCARY.


btw, a coupe is a type of car; what you're talking about is a coup d'etat, which is actually spelled without the e.

And I'm not terribly informed on this situation but holy hell, it sounds ridiculous.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:27 AM
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That particular letter is not a good representation of what is happening. I will admit that. But, I still strongly disagree with the move. As for the Bloc, I understand that they really have little role in this other then to give their support, you still wonder how they will benefit from this. I fail to see how sovereignty is not one of their key issues, but it's a completely different discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

I do not believe this move is democratic, but if not undemocratic, it is at the very least deceitful. So if talking about tricks, Everyone is doing it. Why further support it. When Canada voted, it was assured that this coalition would not be an option. I understand that we vote for MP's but we still do vote for MP's with an informed idea of how our federal government will be run. The Canadian public were not asked, or allowed to show their support or dislike for this leadership. Besides that, this move is a move for power, not our welfare. Maybe they we would be better off, (WHO KNOWS), but I do not believe that they are acting in the best interest of our country/economy. It is my opinion that the manner they are going about this is wrong.

I like how it was put in this blog. The Scott Ross: The Liberal-NDP Coalition Is Undemocratic. you can argue either way, but I agree with this viewpoint.



anyway, I obviously get heated talking about this so I should just shut up now.
The Bloc will get a government that is inline with what the majority of Canada wants and one which core values they agree with (with exception to sovereignty).

The Bloq and the NDP are useless parasites. I really doubt Liberals really want to align themselves with these nuts, but it is for the greater good.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:40 AM
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I know this isn't the most unbiased source but I think Russell is fairly level-headed: TheStar.com | Opinion | Constitution and precedent are on coalition's side

What would happen is that Harper would remain as PM but would likely resign.
This coalition formation is entirely within the rights of the parliamentarians. They will eventually have to answer to voters, so hopefully they will all tread carefully.
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:44 AM
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The Bloc will get a government that is inline with what the majority of Canada wants and one which core values they agree with (with exception to sovereignty).

The Bloq and the NDP are useless parasites. I really doubt Liberals really want to align themselves with these nuts, but it is for the greater good.
If the Bloc didn't have a sovereignty mandate and were a true national party, they would do well. Plus Duceppe seems very competent.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:03 PM
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^ I agree to a very large extent, however, sovereignty does not make economic sense at all. So in this sense, I have to give the party a big fail. The conservative governments have never done anything to our country other than create huge deficits, and the NDP are terrible with this too.

I wanted a short term Conservative government to put Liberals back on their toes. Now that this has been done, it is time to clean up this mess. A conservative government is really only useful if you are an oil baron or live in Alberta.
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:10 PM
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brody, we are so like-minded, it's scary. Except that I eat meat.

cherbd16, I would love to hear more from you. I like intelligent debate, although some jokes thrown in are good too.


They are suggesting to bring on Paul Martin to head an economic policy committee, and Roy Romanow, who I respect greatly. It doesn't sound like such a crazy idea anymore...
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:14 PM
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brody, we are so like-minded, it's scary. Except that I eat meat.

cherbd16, I would love to hear more from you. I like intelligent debate, although some jokes thrown in are good too.


They are suggesting to bring on Paul Martin to head an economic policy committee, and Roy Romanow, who I respect greatly. It doesn't sound like such a crazy idea anymore...
Ha ha... no one's perfect

Hey, PM me about how that dinner with your friends went
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Old 12-03-2008, 12:50 PM
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I just hope they get rid of Dion quicker and Michael Ignatieff is Prime Minister.

Our country will be perfect again
+1

I practically had a heart attack when Dion won the Liberal leadership. I thought Ignatieff would have taken it for sure. I've always been a staunch Liberal supporter but DAMN, even I couldn't vote Liberal in the last election.

I can't see another election really doing anything. It'll be another minority government with Harper as PM again (as long as Dion is Liberal leader). What are the opposition parties going to do? Form another coalition? We're just going around in circles here.
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