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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:11 PM
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Just wanted to add my two-cents.
Just from the news that the new RnR wil be launched again (even though only from a "mid-tier" store), it is generating a lot of talk and interest into RnR again.
Since Michael Ball screwed up the reputation of the product, VF Corp can't just launch it as a premium high-end product right away.
They have to start somewhere and I am guessing that their hope is to start it off modestly and hope that it will pick up steam and sooner or later, they will become the golden standard for jeans again.

I didn't check but anyone know how long VF Corps deal with Kohls is?

ETA: Still don't know whether or not to continue buying, so tempting since so many good deals are popping up.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:42 PM
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^Under Horatio... If you like/love the jeans and enjoy wearing them, definitely buy. There are people out there who will swear off R&R next year once you can only buy them at Kohl's, but I am of the opinion that classic R&R is 10 times better than anything TR or 7FAM is making right now. Selling Rocks that you love just to buy mediocre jeans from another luxury brand doesn't make sense to me.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2011, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatio Horace View Post
Since Michael Ball screwed up the reputation of the product, VF Corp can't just launch it as a premium high-end product right away.

They have to start somewhere and I am guessing that their hope is to start it off modestly and hope that it will pick up steam and sooner or later, they will become the golden standard for jeans again.
I don't think any decent brand has gotten their start at a low-end department store. Selling at Kohl's isn't even close to a "starting point." It's really more of a definitive end point in my opinion.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Horatio Horace View Post
Just wanted to add my two-cents.
Just from the news that the new RnR wil be launched again (even though only from a "mid-tier" store), it is generating a lot of talk and interest into RnR again.
Since Michael Ball screwed up the reputation of the product, VF Corp can't just launch it as a premium high-end product right away.
They have to start somewhere and I am guessing that their hope is to start it off modestly and hope that it will pick up steam and sooner or later, they will become the golden standard for jeans again.
This isn't the way to do it. It pisses off the people who have spent $300 buying the brand in the past... they'll never come back after this. Also, Kohl's is a low end store not a mid tier like Macys.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:47 PM
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The thing is, while it is very true that someone who thinks old R&R is the same as the new Kohl's R&R is someone who doesn't know R&R (as RememberMe? stated), it's pretty obvious that people who will be buying the Kohl's R&R won't. To basically sum up what avatar said in the GD thread, the brand will (or has already lost) its "exclusivity" and everything it had before. The two "lines" of R&R will obviously be different, but only people like us will know that R&R at one time was high-end denim with nice washes.

ETA: Agree with Tami. Kind of sad to see that $300 jeans have become like 10% of that price...
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wonderslice View Post
The two "lines" of R&R will obviously be different, but only people like us will know that R&R at one time was high-end denim with nice washes.
Are you kidding me? Do you really think only AF members have heard of R&R and recognize it as a premium denim brand? R&R had close to $100 million in sales in 2009 and was sold in high end department stores and boutiques across the country.

People aren't going to walk into Kohl's next Spring, see a pair of knockoff R&R and think "Oh, what's this?" That's why Kohl's has licensing agreements with Vera Wang, R&R and others. Their customers see a luxury brand name and think they are buying a "luxury" item for less. 48% of Kohl's sales come from these licensed brands according to an article I read. The difference between the Simply Vera Wang diffusion line and the Kohl's R&R is that Vera Wang still has a high-end line at high end department stores. Rock & Republic won't anymore. It's all STD from here on out...
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:00 PM
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This isn't the way to do it. It pisses off the people who have spent $300 buying the brand in the past... they'll never come back after this. Also, Kohl's is a low end store not a mid tier like Macys.
First stop Kohl's....next think you know you'll be buying R&R's in like Walmart.
I'm still kicking myself over the first pair of S2D RR I bought on Hautelook for $129 and thought I was getting a good deal! I've never worn the pair and haven't even tried to sell them b/c I know i'll never get back what I paid. Now I feel like anything I paid over $50 is essentially worth like nothing in terms of holding value.

I'm secretly hoping some people start to sell off their woman's collections in my size so I can get some old washes I've been after!

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Originally Posted by RememberMe? View Post
Are you kidding me? Do you really think only AF members have heard of R&R and recognize it as a premium denim brand? R&R had close to $100 million in sales in 2009 and was sold in high end department stores and boutiques across the country.

People aren't going to walk into Kohl's next Spring, see a pair of knockoff R&R and think "Oh, what's this?" That's why Kohl's has licensing agreements with Vera Wang, R&R and others. Their customers see a luxury brand name and think they are buying a "luxury" item for less. 48% of Kohl's sales come from these licensed brands according to an article I read. The difference between the Simply Vera Wang diffusion line and the Kohl's R&R is that Vera Wang still has a high-end line at high end department stores. Rock & Republic won't anymore. It's all STD from here on out...
Reality is that only the AF members and people who liked going to the high end stores/boutiques to own an exclusive brand are the ones who will know its S2D garbage! Maybe I speak for myself but the same people who shop in the high end boutiques are not the same people shopping at Kohls!
Last time I went to one I saw racks/racks of just garbage cheapy clothes priced at like 90% off and people had like 40% off coupons along with it... just wait... you'll be hearing people talk about how they got "Rock & Republics for like $5-10 on clearance!!"
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2011, 04:15 PM
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^Under Lovinya'... I don't think we'll see R&R at Walmart. The deal VF Corp signed with Kohl's is exclusive, so starting next Spring Kohl's is going to be the only retailer selling them.

I agree with you that when STD's first came out, a lot of people were fooled by them. But my local Marshall's has had Diesel STD's on and off for months for $59.99 and they never sell at that price. Same thing for the True Religion STD's for $79.99. The Diesels are terrible, feel like cardboard, and no one buys them even though they say Diesel and only cost $60. I think the general public is pretty smart these days when in it comes to STD's. That's why they don't sell.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:18 PM
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Look, when people on the streets ( not sure about USA) will see someone wearing the old beautiful R&R jeans and the latest R&R STD pair - I don't even think they will realise that it is the same brand ( example: loads of times when seeing pics of R&R on ebay without the back pics, sellers would reply that there are some curled, twisted, snake-like whatever things there, they didnt even see them as Rs!) OR they would think:" WOW! these jeans ( the old ones) look great: expensive, sleek, cool, well-designed.. wtf with the pair I have got?"

I'm going to play a psychic here and say that it is not the end some of us would have imagined. VF Corp didn't just buy R&R to destroy the brand at Kohl's, they have their reasons. Shame, a little bird hasn't told us anything yet to clarify this move.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:27 PM
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Are you kidding me? Do you really think only AF members have heard of R&R and recognize it as a premium denim brand? R&R had close to $100 million in sales in 2009 and was sold in high end department stores and boutiques across the country.

People aren't going to walk into Kohl's next Spring, see a pair of knockoff R&R and think "Oh, what's this?" That's why Kohl's has licensing agreements with Vera Wang, R&R and others. Their customers see a luxury brand name and think they are buying a "luxury" item for less. 48% of Kohl's sales come from these licensed brands according to an article I read. The difference between the Simply Vera Wang diffusion line and the Kohl's R&R is that Vera Wang still has a high-end line at high end department stores. Rock & Republic won't anymore. It's all STD from here on out...
There's some truth to the notion that people aren't going to recognize the brand. R&R may have had $100 million in sales but they are not available everywhere. As I've stated before none of the department stores in Wisconsin carry R&R. I rarely see a pair in and around Milwaukee and typically when I do they're from Illinois. When I was an undergrad a vast majority of the people I met had never heard of Rock & Republic. The only boutique in the city that sold them stopped when I was a sophomore.

I've seen the people who shop at Kohl's and most of them will never have heard of R&R or even seen a pair in real life. They're more likely to see the pockets and think "Rocawear" than Rock & Republic.

Obviously this isn't true everywhere and there will be some brand recognition but the Kohl's deal will bring the brand to markets where it hasn't existed before.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:10 PM
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I have been asked if I was wearing Rocawear. Most of the people I come across aren't familiar with R&R and I very rarely see people wearing them. Most PDers I see stick to 7FAM and TR. I don't think there will be this mass confusion w/ Kohl's R&R and traditional R&R. Folks are being dramatic there. Kohl's shoppers know they're not buying THE Vera Wang. Target shoppers know they are not buying THE WR/Mulberry/Cynthia Vincent/Proenza Schouler/Thakoon/Rodarte etc. (if they even know the names.) Folks are savvy enough to know that there is a trend of designer collaborations at lower end stores. The concept isn't novel.

And I would never say that folks that shop at boutiques don't shop at Kohl's/Walmart. You wouldn't say that about Target and it's in the same category. It just some how got elevated to being classier by the public. It's a discount chain like all the rest. I think it really depends on where you live and what's available to you. The majority of people do not live in large, urban areas so shopping is often limited. I have purchased R&R from boutiques and department stores in town. I grocery shop at Walmart every month. People who have money don't keep it by spending it all. Few people on this forum pay retail even if they can.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:33 PM
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And I would never say that folks that shop at boutiques don't shop at Kohl's/Walmart.
Sadly it's boutique, singular, here in Milwaukee. At least it was. The single store that had them stopped carrying them a few years ago and now they're out of business.
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Old 04-29-2011, 06:34 PM
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RememberMe? makes a good point in that in R&R's case it's not a diffusion line but just "the line" that's going to be sold at Kohl's. Around where I am R&R isn't that popular either--the most I see are people wearing S2D crap...and people who only shop at stores like Kohl's will never have heard of R&R before. Which is why I said what I said earlier (though now I can't remember exactly what it was and I'm too lazy to check it again).

/thispostmakesnorealsense

Whether you want to believe it or not, I do think that this move will "cheapen" the brand, even the older, nicer pairs of R&R. People that aren't devoted to denim won't care about how R&R used to be a high-end denim line that got acquired by VF Corp, etc. They'll probably just think "oh, new line of jeans at Kohl's!"
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Horatio Horace View Post
VF Corp can't just launch it as a premium high-end product right away.
They have to start somewhere and I am guessing that their hope is to start it off modestly and hope that it will pick up steam and sooner or later, they will become the golden standard for jeans again.
We are talking about a company here that has literally billions of dollars at its disposal.

from wiki:

Quote:
Revenue US$7.6 billion (2010)
Employees 46,600 (2008)
If you cannot figure out how start a luxury brand w/ 7.6 BILLION $ in revenue and nearly 50K employees, yet various other designers (like Micheal Ball for example) can build a luxury brand out of their garage w/ way less capital .... well your company has some serious issues.

This is the end of the brand as it is known in it's current form, well kind of. It was already getting to the point of being overproduced, over priced for the quality, production was being moved out of the US and to countries w/ a much cheaper production cost. This will end up being more of the same lower quality, mass produced crap.

I would agree that Wal-Mart is probably next in line, rather than a luxury line. VF already sells their made in China wranglers there, along with all of the other great crap that Americans love to buy. You can get your R&R with your made in China shoes, made in China shirts, buy your kids some made in China toys. You can fill them all in your big AMERICAN DREAM house.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2011, 06:27 PM
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^agree 100%
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:04 PM
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We are talking about a company here that has literally billions of dollars at its disposal.

from wiki:
Billions of dollars at its disposal, you sure about that? Have any reputable source other than Wikipedia?

Btw there's also something called 'expenses'.




Quote:
Originally Posted by treasurehoard View Post
I would agree that Wal-Mart is probably next in line, rather than a luxury line. VF already sells their made in China wranglers there, along with all of the other great crap that Americans love to buy. You can get your R&R with your made in China shoes, made in China shirts, buy your kids some made in China toys. You can fill them all in your big AMERICAN DREAM house.

Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Sak's, etc all have goods that are Made In China. Are you implying that they are not higher end department stores because of where it's made?

Most high end luxury brands have productions in China. So nice try being a hater. And I thought you were Chinese. LOL

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Old 04-30-2011, 08:23 PM
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^Who are you?

And VF's projected revenue in 2011 is $1.96 billion. 2010 revenue was $1.75 billion. Is Businessweek a good enough source for you?

VF 1Q profit rises 23 pct, boosts guidance - BusinessWeek
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:30 PM
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^Who are you?

And VF's projected revenue in 2011 is $1.96 billion. 2010 revenue was $1.75 billion. Is Businessweek a good enough source for you?

VF 1Q profit rises 23 pct, boosts guidance - BusinessWeek

Sure it is.

You should know that VF Corp own dozens of name brands, what makes you think they will devote the bulk of their resources on this Rock&Republic project?

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Old 04-30-2011, 08:38 PM
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Sure it is.

You should know that VF Corp own dozens of name brands, what makes you think they will devote the bulk of their resources on this Rock&Republic project?
Huh? VF has the resources to do whatever it wants with R&R. It could have chosen to keep the brand in the luxury denim category, but it didn't. R&R is now part of VF's "branded lifestyle" strategy, whatever that means. VF purchased R&R with the idea already in mind to do something like this. There was an article in January that said R&R was headed to Kohl's or Sears.

I thought that was crazy at the time. I was wrong.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo View Post
Billions of dollars at its disposal, you sure about that? Have any reputable source other than Wikipedia?

Btw there's also something called 'expenses'.


Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Sak's, etc all have goods that are Made In China. Are you implying that they are not higher end department stores because of where it's made?

Most high end luxury brands have productions in China. So nice try being a hater. And I thought you were Chinese. LOL
Expenses, expenses. I am sure the company can get investment capital and cheap loans with 6 billion in revenue. There is something called leverage.

Yeah a lot of companies make stuff in China. My opinion doesn't have anything to do with a dislike of China (the country or the people who live there). What I do not like the companies that go into these countries and exploit them, many times using sweatshop labor to make a profit. It has to do with a dislike of products being sold as "high end" and "exclusive" when the people making them are living in poverty and are practically working in slavery. I personally would not buy a pair of jeans, a shirt or pretty much any clothing item made in China, Mexico, Thailand, Guatemala or similar. The laborers are severely underpaid. There is a reason so many companies go to these countries to manufacture items. It is because it is CHEAP. They can pay people pennies and make a huge profit.

Many consumers don't consider these facts when they are buying products. Part of the reason some designer items are so expensive is because the workers involved in manufacturing those items are paid a fair wage, the materials used are high quality and also made by workers who are making a fair wage.

Let's consider a pair of Levis or Wrangler sold at Wal-Mart, compared to a pair of Flat Heads or Samurais.

When it comes to a $10 - 20 pair of jeans just try to imagine how it can be profitable. It is because of cheap labor and cheap fabrics - this is the choice of the company and the consumers demand (NOT the country they are manufactured in). There are many processes involved with making jeans. You have people who pick the cotton, make the fabric, dye the fabric, make the patterns, cut the fabric, make the buttons/rivets, sew the fabric, make the tags just to name some of the processes. In order to sell a pair of jeans at $10 and be profitable those people are getting paid jack.

On the other hand if you look at a pair of Flat Heads or Samurais. Each person involved in the manufacturing process is getting a FAIR wage. They are able to make a living off the work they do. Everyone from the cotton suppliers to the person sewing the jeans.


Also I wouldn't consider something high end/luxury designer just because they are in Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Sak's. Just because 1 of those stores carries a label does not make it high end. Honestly I wouldn't consider R&R, Diesel, TR or most of the brands discussed on here to be "high end " both in price and quality. They are more like mid range, maybe creeping into high end on occasionally price wise. Honestly a $250 pair of jeans is cheap when we are talking about luxury denim.

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^Who are you?
Disgruntled eBay buyer who filed a dispute claiming his jeans were 1/4" off in the leg opening. Same person who also just requested the business contact info for stalker purposes. Also a forum troll w/ multiple IDs.

The measurement was accurate. Actually kind of gotta thank this guy because he purchased the jeans for $80. They ended up selling for $125 next time around.
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:14 AM
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Actually kind of gotta thank this guy because he purchased the jeans for $80. They ended up selling for $125 next time around.

Those are my favorite types of douche bags!
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Old 05-01-2011, 09:01 AM
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Those are my favorite types of douche bags!
shaqmeoff

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Old 05-03-2011, 12:07 AM
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Disgruntled eBay buyer who filed a dispute claiming his jeans were 1/4" off in the leg opening. Same person who also just requested the business contact info for stalker purposes. Also a forum troll w/ multiple IDs.

The measurement was accurate. Actually kind of gotta thank this guy because he purchased the jeans for $80. They ended up selling for $125 next time around.
Why would I be disgruntled?! You gave me a full refund and you even covered the return shipping cost! LOL

But really, I did you a favor. You resold them for $125. Looks like we are both winners here.

And since I left you a positive feedback I think now it's your turn to come to a POSITIVE solution.

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Old 05-03-2011, 12:32 AM
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:19 AM
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^^ Even now you sound like you are trying to prove your point. Disgruntled? oh, yeah! Banned?
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